[17:50] <MathPoet> As was suggested on another channel, Is there a reality without some awareness perceiving it?

[17:52] <MathPoet> I think that reality might be self-aware. Or in the process thereof.

[17:56] <DGNeree> I believe that everything that IS, is aware, and if it's not, it doesn't exist

[17:57] <appletizer> so a rock is aware of its own existence?

[17:57] <MathPoet> in some as yet unverifiable way, yes. or at least the particles it is made of.

[17:58] <DGNeree> yes, or the organism it is a part of

[17:58] <appletizer> mm... i pity the rock that gets flushed down the toilet as it's aware of knocking against the sanitary pipes down into the pond

[17:58] <appletizer> :)

[17:58] <DGNeree> but maybe the rock as we see it is not real

[17:58] <DGNeree> but an outer manifestation of awareness

[17:59] <DGNeree> you would hit an imaginary body

[17:59] <appletizer> true...

[17:59] * appletizer picks up a LARGE rock

[17:59] <DGNeree> and the pain i would feel would only be an awareness of pain

[17:59] <MathPoet> If we can sense the rock, perhaps we can also have insight into its awareness.

[18:00] <MathPoet> i don't think things are imaginary unless they exist solely in the imagination - the inner world.

[18:02] <MathPoet> back to the original question. Is there reality beyond perception? we may have no way of knowing. does it mean OUR perception or ANY perception?

[18:02] <DGNeree> they might not be imaginary, but ehat we think of as a rock may be

[18:03] <MathPoet> in fact, if it's beyond ANY perception, then there's a possible contradiction.

[18:04] <MathPoet> any reality we came to know about would no longer qualify....

[18:04] <MathPoet> there would be no way to verify it, ultimately.

[18:04] <MathPoet> I BELIEVE there is, though. As the alternative seems absurd.

[18:04] <MathPoet> If the tree falls in the forest....

[18:04] <DGNeree> there isn't. only experience

[18:05] <DGNeree> the tree is aware of itself

[18:05] <DGNeree> when there is no awareness, there might be vibrations in the air, but no sound

[18:05] <MathPoet> the tree makes a sound. the laws of physics are the same everywhere except in singularities and tininess.

[18:05] <DGNeree> sound is made in the brain

[18:06] <MathPoet> I believe that the sound exists as the vibration in the air, and so exists no matter what.

[18:07] <MathPoet> But it is a belief

[18:07] <MathPoet> Like so many things.

[18:07] <MathPoet> question: does my imagining of an object make it real, somehow?

[18:07] <MathPoet> Is imagination a type of perception?

[18:09] <MathPoet> If I imagine a rock as being self-aware does that make it so?

[18:09] <MathPoet> The imagination is somehow real....

[18:10] <DGNeree> no.

[18:10] <MathPoet> Never mind the mathematical distinction.

[18:10] <MathPoet> haha!

[18:10] <DGNeree> the rock, or at least something we percieve as a rock is there

[18:11] <DGNeree> but WHAT it is we don't know for sure

[18:11] <MathPoet> but how do we perceive its sentience, except through the imagination?

[18:11] <DGNeree> we percieve only outer.... manifestations

[18:11] <MathPoet> How does ANYONE perceive awareness?

[18:12] <MathPoet> If we lock this down, we exclude things perhaps inappropriately.

[18:12] <MathPoet> and self-aware is something else entirely!!!

[18:14] <MathPoet> I've got to go. cya in a few hours.

[18:16] <DGNeree> you don't percieve awareness, awereness IS percieving

[18:16] <MathPoet> I disagree.

[18:17] <MathPoet> but I'll have to leave it until a later time. :)

[18:17] =-= MathPoet is now known as MathPoetAway

[18:24] =-= YOU are now known as DGN|brb

[18:29] -->| Haexyrus_ (n=Haexyrus@ has joined ##philosophy

[18:30] |<-- Haexyrus has left freenode (Nick collision from services.)

[18:30] =-= Haexyrus_ is now known as Haexyrus

[18:35] <DGN|brb> anyway. if a rock would be aware, we have no way of knowing of WHAT it would be aware

[18:35] <DGN|brb> of

[18:36] <DGN|brb> supposing of course that there really exists a thing we call "rock"

[18:37] <DGN|brb> we separate our surroundings and diveide it into different "objects"

[18:37] <DGN|brb> it is an arbitrary stance

[18:37] <DGN|brb> maybe there is no such thing as an independent entity called rock

[18:38] <DGN|brb> and because nobody yet knows what "matter" is, nor what "awareness" is

[18:38] <DGN|brb> everybody's still searching

[18:39] <DGN|brb> delving into matter into atoms and further

[18:40] <DGN|brb> but everything we deem "proven"

[18:40] <DGN|brb> just brings up more questions

[18:41] <DGN|brb> But western science disregards the fact, that everything we see is there because we perceive it

[18:42] <DGN|brb> they diregard the "I", the perceiver and say it is a by-product of the material (bio-chemical) organism

[18:42] <DGN|brb> but who says that?

[18:43] <DGN|brb> it is an "I" that believes and "perceives" those things to be true

[18:44] <DGN|brb> they are subjective ideas

[18:44] <DGN|brb> and not real if you regard the "I" as not real

[18:44] <DGN|brb> this is the paradox

[18:45] <DGN|brb> there is no reality without an awareness of it and there is no awareness if there is nothing to be perceived

[18:45] <DGN|brb> to be aware of

[18:47] * Haexyrus is away: I'll be back in 2hours

[18:47] <DGN|brb> bye Haexyrus ;)

[18:48] <seanw> Haexyrus, thanks for cotnribting to the list

[18:56] <DGN|brb> doe this line of reasoning make any sense?

[18:56] =-= YOU are now known as DGNeree

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[18:59] <DGNeree> Eastern philosophy states that as everything in the material word is (seemingly) undergoing change, transformation,"coming together" and dissolution, there is no reality in it

[19:01] <DGNeree> it is all manifestations of an underlying reality, which is eternal, unborn and undying, unchanging and the ground for all manifestations

[19:01] <DGNeree> and that ground is the "I", the perciever, the innermost soul, the Atman

[19:02] <DGNeree> because it doesn't change, everything changes

[19:04] <DGNeree> it is totally opposite to the western idea of the world, in which the objects are "real" and the ego subjective and nonexistent

[19:04] <DGNeree> And of course, the "I" is non-existent.

[19:04] <DGNeree> it is not an object

[19:05] <DGNeree> and it cannot be defined by logic

[19:06] <DGNeree> Anyway, the two ideas are irreconcilable and neither can be proven

[19:06] <DGNeree> "That's why the twain shall never meet"

[19:07] <DGNeree> But maybe they will :)

[19:08] <DGNeree> The "I" is pure awareness

[19:11] <DGNeree> it perceives what the senses let through, calls it matter. it percieves thoughts and feelings

[19:12] <DGNeree> and is unchanged by it